tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4014415529871703586.post1814764172804867803..comments2023-12-16T02:44:20.427-06:00Comments on Reginald Shepherd's Blog: The Art of LosingReginald Shepherdhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/11965170916626482963noreply@blogger.comBlogger14125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4014415529871703586.post-57981917954614261762009-04-07T21:18:00.000-06:002009-04-07T21:18:00.000-06:00I want give they happy time, twelve sky Gold, I wo...I want give they happy time, <A HREF="http://www.vir4u.com/product/TwelveSky_gold.html" REL="nofollow">twelve sky Gold</A>, I work here with <A HREF="http://www.vir4u.com/product/TwelveSky_gold.html" REL="nofollow">12sky gold</A>. 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My apologies.<BR/><BR/>peace and poetry,<BR/><BR/>ReginaldReginald Shepherdhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11965170916626482963noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4014415529871703586.post-33357226892354379522007-09-18T04:18:00.000-06:002007-09-18T04:18:00.000-06:00An excellent response (especially from someone not...An excellent response (especially from someone not in the best of health writing in 'the hour of the wolf'). This merits some consideration. Stay well,<BR/><BR/>MarkMark Granierhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09899629187771913398noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4014415529871703586.post-64785210867598895082007-09-18T03:45:00.000-06:002007-09-18T03:45:00.000-06:00Thanks to all for your comments, and particularly ...Thanks to all for your comments, and particularly to Mark and Alice for bringing up the important if somewhat vexed question of how to define the term "music" when applied to poetry. I apologize for my delay in responding, but depression, travel, and a brief hospital stay have kept me away from the blog for a while.<BR/><BR/>I'm afraid that I don't have a brilliant reply at the moment, but if I had one, I would frame such a reply in terms of Zukofsky's famous anantomy of poetry: upper limit poetry, lower limit song. It seems to my mind and ear that Bishop's poems, for the most part, lie quite deliberately closer to this lower limit. The predominant sense is of a very intelligent, articulate person speaking to another. Her work is highly descriptive and discursive, and not always but frequently eschews prominent verbal devices such as rhyme, allliteration, and assonance; the rhythms tend to be those of speech rather than of song (though she has deliberately songlike poems, like "Casabianca," one of my favorites). Similarly, she is quite sparing of figurative language; there is little metaphor in her poems, though similes are much more common (and I at least think of simile as being closer to the prose of fact than to poetry, emphasizing as it does both the similarity and the difference between the objects compared, as opposed to metaphor's equation of two things). All these elements are part of a kind of modesty and propriety the poems exhibit, as if they wish to avoid raising the voice, rhetorically, musically, or emotionally.<BR/><BR/>These observations are all, of course, overstatements and even exaggerations, but I think that they point to something real in Bishop's poems.<BR/><BR/>As has been repeated ad infinitum, not to say ad nauseam, the word “lyric” derives from the word “lyre.” Originally a lyric was a poem written to be sung, often to musical accompaniment (this sense is preserved in the use of the word “lyrics” to refer to the words of a song). Lyric has traditionally been defined by its foregrounding of the musical elements deriving from its origin (rhythmic and sonic patterning), though often the concept of “music” is metaphorical. As The New Princeton Encyclopedia of Poetry and Poetics entry on "Lyric" points out, "lyric poetry may be said to retain most prominently the elements which evidence its origins in musical expression--singing, chanting, and recitation to musical accompaniment" (713). This does not seem to me to be the case with most, though not all, of Bishop's peoms. "In the case of lyric, [although musical elements may play a role in drama and epic,] the musical element is intrinsic to the work intellectually as well as aesthetically: it becomes the focal point for the poet's perceptions as they are given a verbalized form to convey emotional and rational values" (ibid.). This seems to me the meeting point or nexus between the definition of the lyric as a mode of foregrounded verbal music and the definition of the lyric as a mode of foregrounding of the speaker. In this sense, perhaps one might think of many, but not all, of Bishop's poems as lineated prose lyrics.<BR/><BR/>Or at least these are my thoughts at four thirty on a sleepless Tuesday morning.<BR/><BR/>Take good care, and thanks again for reading and commenting.<BR/><BR/>all best,<BR/><BR/>ReginaldReginald Shepherdhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11965170916626482963noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4014415529871703586.post-81341729650782915852007-09-17T12:47:00.000-06:002007-09-17T12:47:00.000-06:00No apologies necessary. Perhaps Reginald is even n...No apologies necessary. Perhaps Reginald is even now working on a brilliant response.Alice C. Linsleyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13069827354696169270noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4014415529871703586.post-8142792653263692222007-09-17T03:10:00.000-06:002007-09-17T03:10:00.000-06:00Agreed Alice, and we may well be speaking past eac...Agreed Alice, and we may well be speaking past each other. Apologies if I seemed pedantic.Mark Granierhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09899629187771913398noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4014415529871703586.post-56739434711680849432007-09-16T17:36:00.000-06:002007-09-16T17:36:00.000-06:00I guess "somewhat" is akin to "a good deal" and we...I guess "somewhat" is akin to "a good deal" and we may be speaking past each other. To Reginald, then?Alice C. Linsleyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13069827354696169270noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4014415529871703586.post-73049327376034694582007-09-15T04:35:00.000-06:002007-09-15T04:35:00.000-06:00Hi Alice. I am all for objectivity where possible....Hi Alice. I am all for objectivity where possible. But I am not sure exactly where you think I'm being subjective or how to quantify "somewhat"? And what is the "this" "some poems produce"? Is it the facility that allows us to hear "the music inside us"? How does one decide definitively which poems produce this and which do not (and how is the presumption that one can BE definitive less subjective than what I said)? For example, I hear wonderful music in Auden's work, but I doubt Ron Silliman does. <BR/><BR/>I am, no doubt, being subjective when I say that I find a good deal of music in Bishop's work, and when I speculate that "different poets/critics have very different conceptions of what makes a poem musical". I simply wanted to see what Reginald might have to say about this, because I have no doubt that it would be illuminating, and perhaps also a much-needed (and more objective) clarification.Mark Granierhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09899629187771913398noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4014415529871703586.post-41697814562401761912007-09-14T22:02:00.000-06:002007-09-14T22:02:00.000-06:00Isn't that somewhat subjective, Mark? It may be th...Isn't that somewhat subjective, Mark? It may be that we hear the music inside us and each a different melody and cadence. Some poems produce this. Some don't.Alice C. Linsleyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13069827354696169270noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4014415529871703586.post-56066380314434563172007-09-10T17:04:00.000-06:002007-09-10T17:04:00.000-06:00Very good piece about one of my favourite poems (a...Very good piece about one of my favourite poems (and possibly the best villanelles in English). Like Pamela, I too find a good deal of music in Bishop (the marvellous 'Sandpiper' comes to mind), though it would be interesting to see you define what you mean by music or 'song' in the context of poetry. I imagine that different poets/critics have very different conceptions of what makes a poem musical.Mark Granierhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09899629187771913398noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4014415529871703586.post-45719831236429920222007-09-10T14:38:00.000-06:002007-09-10T14:38:00.000-06:00"One Art" is a fabulous poem, and I really like yo..."One Art" is a fabulous poem, and I really like your analysis. I hear music (words as song), though, in much of Bishop's work, especially "The Armadillo," "Pink Dog," and "Shampoo."Pamela Johnson Parkerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06637447850820805268noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4014415529871703586.post-14015734754675740022007-09-10T09:35:00.000-06:002007-09-10T09:35:00.000-06:00When I teach the Contemporary Elegy, I always begi...When I teach the Contemporary Elegy, I always begin with this poem. If Elegy is a poem of Sadness, Loss, or Regret, then this poem captures all three in a subtle and spellbinding way.C. Dalehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17270640200393742125noreply@blogger.com